Same Planet, different views
Response to Chip Guthrie, CRA Board member
Below is Mr. Guthrie’s comment yesterday to Katie and the response from the Chair of Respectful Planning Pac, Laurel Decker:
On this issue, the one we will be voting on March 12th, I have spoken to no one who wishes to have more 65 foot buildings downtown (Federal to Dixie) including the members of the new pac. They can correct me if I'm wrong.
Response: If no one is planning to build that high, why are you arguing against height limits?
The main issue comes down to ANY effort to tie the downtown to the intracoastal will be made HARDER by not allowing buildings of the same size that now exist there
Response: This “tying” downtown to the water nonsense is just ridiculous. East Atlantic Ave in Delray is one and two-story buildings from the downtown core all the way to the water. Why do we need six story buildings to tie downtown to the water??
We had a well publicized open meeting at Brogue's Monday night explaining the history of the area around the Gulfstream and how it was first designed as a resort that encompassed the entire block. It was a destination when the main mode of transportation bringing people to Lake Worth was the train. The area West of the Hotel was a "Hotel District". This is part of the design of the city.
Response: I think you should have had the courtesy (if not the courage of your convictions) to invite me to speak at your meeting about a charter amendment that I wrote. The low rise charter amendment does not in any way prohibit hotels. If this is what you are telling people, then you are lying. As president of the SPPNA, don’t you feel responsible for accurately portraying a law your residents will be voting on?
Frank Palen, who was asked to present to our NA is the author of Lake Worth's Historic Preservation Ordinance and is an expert on planning issues. He probably knows more than most on what it takes to preserve the quaintness of historically significant 100 year old cities.
Response: Frank Palen knows how to get around the HP ordinance that he wrote, that’s why the prior owner of the Gulfstream hired Frank in 2004 to propose to the commission a charter amendment to allow 100’ heights in the entire 100 block of S. Lakeside (east side). He almost got away with it, but Tom Norris pointed it out to Mr Timm, who “alerted” the commission (some of them probably knew about it) and it was voted down. He portrayed the amendment as targeting only the two northern-most parcels, but in fact it covered the entire block. He’s quite the expert, I agree.
The meeting was very well attended and showed how much people wanted information on this issue. I urge you, and everyone for that matter, to attend another meeting with William Waters on the 18th so that you can get more information.
Response: And let’s not forget that when there was a commission majority that favored low rise, Mr. Waters is on public record as very strongly agreeing with their perspective and their case for keeping heights 45’ and lower in the downtown area. I was at one meeting when he voiced his agreement and was listening to another at home when he again made the case for low rise. I like Mr Waters, he does a good job, and he likes his job. And he knows who butters his bread.
Once presented with the fact that our LDR's and Comp plan which have taken some 5 years and over $1 million dollars to develop already address the issue, COMPLETELY, (Look at the Chart) it becomes evident that the two sides are diametrically opposed over an emotional issue over two stories of building height. No give, no compromise.
Response: I disagree. Our LDRs and Comp Plan allow 65’. Our prior Comp Plan allowed 35’, so 45’ is a compromise. And a lot of residents think so too. And not happily.
I was told last night that the people of the respectful pac were asked to compromise and exempt the two to three pieces of property East of Federal Hwy. that could support a hotel or expansion to the Gulfstream Hotel to help make it financially viable and they were met with "NO COMPROMISE".
Response: “The people of the Respectful PAC” were definitely not contacted by anyone and asked to compromise or exempt properties. I was once given a message by our treasurer that the mayor wanted to speak with me, but she did not return my two phone calls to her. There is an entire city block that can be used to support the Gulfstream effectively at 45’, or build another hotel, or tons of condos. We all know that condos are what is going to be built anyway. There are several nice pieces of property east of Federal that could support a hotel much larger than the gorgeous Hyatt that was just completed in Delray Beach (in compliance with their 48’ height restriction).
Although it cannot happen due to the LDR's and the Comp plan, the Charter will still allow 10 story buildings West of Dixie on both sides of the core area. (1st Ave South to 2nd Ave North) The charter would still allow up to 65' buildings East of Dixie outside of the core area. Please remember, I said neither scenario can happen due to the LDR's and Comp plan regardless what the Charter allows "up to". If you truly wanted Lake Worth to flatten out, the referendum should have included ALL Lake Worth, rescinding the prior Charter Amendment, not just the little strip from A Street to the Bridge, between 1st So. and 2nd North.
Response: The Comp Plan can be easily amended now that our Governor has gutted the Department of Community Affairs and re-branded it the Department of Economic Opportunity. The LDRs can be changed in a matter of weeks, or a waiver granted, or a variance granted. You may not be aware of this, Chip, but the city has granted waivers and variances aplenty for many years. How do you think the Lucerne got built with 80 units on .75 acres when the property was zoned for 40 units per acre?? Right now, the Lucerne could be built in Bryant Park neighborhood (with proposed LDRs and our very willing P&Z board). Loretta Sharpe didn’t even bother to comment from the dais at the meeting where she approved the variances for the Lucerne, and she’s on the P&Z again now. And she is leading the PAC that opposes the height limits. If we wanted the city to “flatten out”, we would have written the amendment with lower heights than 45’.
I oppose this referendum because it is bad for Lake Worth. It sends a negative business unfriendly message. But I also don't want skyscrapers in Lake Worth anywhere! 65' tall buildings are not skyscrapers. We could use a couple of new Hotels and an expansion to the Gulfstream to get it opened back up. So a "NO" vote may well "Save the Gulfstream Hotel".
Response: Nothing in the charter amendment hinders the restoration of the Gulfstream. Nothing in the charter amendment prohibits hotels. The PAC looks forward to the Gulfstream re-opening as much as you do. I have actually visited the new Hyatt in Delray (it’s gorgeous), and we look forward to new hotels as well! I would like to say how much I admire the Hyatt organization for their Respectful Planning in Delray by complying with their four story height limit. Hyatt is being Respectful in WPB as well, by proposing a hotel on the old City Hall property that complies with WPB height limits. Unlike the Tom Crocker group, who wants the WPB commission to allow them to build FIFTEEN stories (ten stories higher than the limit). Kudos to Hyatt.
As to your question why the CRA is not in the neighborhoods, please visit Lakeworthcra.org for the map. The CRA extends from our North to South border right through the heart of our city West to I-95 in spots and East to encompass the Gulfstream Hotel. It was platted long before my stint. We are doing what we can with the same reduced budget and economy that everybody else is dealing with.
Chip Guthrie
Thanks for posting this. Just a note here, this well publicized meeting that was held at Brouges, I knew nothing about it.
ReplyDeleteI also missed the memo.
ReplyDeletePropaganda is a private matter, public 'get trained' in the new normal rhetoric! I did see the invites but I am past being told a kizillion times this is good when I can read and know "Public now Community Benefit" is UNDEFINED. Perhaps a lawyer will challenge the NA Non-Profit status by not allowing a public challenge to their views. Read any of the by=laws, they are strict!
ReplyDeleteParrot Cove:
C. The Association shall sponsor and support lectures, public forums, workshops, discussions, research, publications, special programs and other activities to educate residents, government officials and other organizations on public issues i.e. the unique character of the neighborhood, public safety, neighborhood concerns and governmental operations and services.
I. No substantial part of the activities of the Association shall be the carrying on of propaganda, or otherwise attempting to influence legislation; and the Association shall not participate in or intervene in (including the publishing or distribution of statements)any political campaign on behalf of, or in opposition to any candidate for public office.
Nobody told the ROLOH neighborhood about it!
ReplyDeleteLaurel, thanks for exposing all of Chip's lies and half-truths for what they are. Either he deliberately lied,or he believes the lies being thrown around town by those wanting to ignore what the majority of Lake Worth citizens moved here for.
ReplyDeleteOn another subject- message to Wes Blackman- someone anonomously sent the video of your arrest to Lynn a LONG TIME AGO ago. I know . She showed it to me. When I asked if she was going to post something personnal like that,she said "NO WAY.She would not post something like that about anybody." Look Wes,you incredible ASS HOLE, Lynn sent you the link to make sure you were alerted to it.As a COURTESEY!!! Something you and your "fans" obviously know nothig about. You owe Lynn one damn big apology. Katie Mcgiveron
This political agenda was bound to happen especially now that Lindsey is president of the NA council.
ReplyDeleteIsn't it true that a developer can be given even more feet, maybe 10 feet or so, if they give some sort of a public benefit? The city could go even higher?
ReplyDeleteThey can NOT build higher than what the Charter allows. That is why a Charter Amendment, limiting heights in our downtown, is so important.
ReplyDeleteI would like someone in the know to explain how the lucerne condo got built. What was Loretta's influence?
ReplyDeleteAll of this back and forth about heights is really an effort of futility. People really need to wake up to the real problems of Lake Worth. 99% of Developers refuse to come to Lake Worth, and the remaining 1% are turned off by city personnel or are unable to get financing- specifically for projects in Lake Worth. Financial Institutions consider LW a bad investment.
ReplyDeleteYou wouldn't want to back up that highly negative opinion would you? Your credentials, your name, etc. would be a start.
ReplyDeleteLynn,
ReplyDeleteThank you for posting my comments in their entirety. Just to clarify, the board of South Palm Park NA discussed having a "forum" or "debate" as opposed to an informational presentation. We decided to have the informational session. It was our attempt to have someone with the most knowledge in this area give a "fair and balanced" presentation.
When Mr. Palen's name came up, we did not know if he was for or against the issue. It was for his expertise that he was our first choice. He is not a current member of any board and not currently advocating for any entity that I'm aware of.
The Bryant Park presentation scheduled for March 18th is also not a forum or debate. William Waters is supposed to lay out the facts. I imagine people will have questions. Have they asked for an opposing voice to Mr. Waters?
Suzanne, we are not Parrot Cove.
Regardless, SPPNA takes no official position on the issue. I personally am against it.
I am also a member of the CRA. The CRA Board takes no official position on the issue, but I am personally against it.
Why would you want to make it HARDER for people to do business in this city? We needs businesses for jobs. Construction jobs. Service jobs. Professional jobs. Throwing up MORE obstacles is just the opposite of what I believe we should be doing to attract business to our downtown and especially the area East of Federal to the waterfront. You may want more one story "Dollar Stores", I'd rather see mixed commercial, an open Gulfstream Hotel and restaurants and entertainment or a Hotel on the way to our New Beach Casino.
Ask yourself while driving to the ocean, is the Lofts Apartments out of place or the Dollar Store out of place?
I think we should ENCOURAGE development, not DISCOURAGE it.
And I'm not a developer, real estate agent or broker and I do almost no new construction.
My company re-piped the entire West half of the Gulfstream Hotel some 30 years ago and one of my first jobs was a bus boy at the restaurant there. Why make it harder for anyone to add on to that property in the same style as is there. It just doesn't add up to me.
What about the rest of the city outside of the 3 block by 16 block strip? Is this the only area you think should be "low rise"? Shouldn't the Charter amendment have dropped all the heights?
Just leave it as it is. No one is beating down the door to do work in Lake Worth. Throw a welcome mat once in a while. "Just say NO"
Chip Guthrie
Regarding Katie’s ‘other subject’, I must agree. I too was aware of the tape concerning Wes. I too inquired if it was going to be published and I was totally prepared to plea to my friend not to publish something that would be hurtful to Mr. Blackman. I NEED NOT HAVE BEEN THE LEAST BIT CONCERNED! In our heartfelt discussion, I was told quite clearly that tape would never reach the light of day by any action on her part. To be honest, I was inwardly embarrassed by my concern. Just because my friend is highly outspoken and passionate about her ideas and concerns does not mean she would ever be deliberately harmful to another person. In fact, I have frequently seen unflattering photos and graphics that were not and will never be used! Dozens of people would be surprised at the level of discretion and caution on their behalf from Lynn I have personally witnessed. Frankly, I did not watch the tape nor have I read Mr. Blackman’s blog but I know my friend. Lynn has a keen eye in recognizing not only gorgeous sunsets but also personal frailties in others that are ‘not her area’. Barbara Jean Weber
ReplyDeleteAnyone who has been around this city for awhile understands Frank Palen and his influence. If I were attempting to support my personal position opposing the referendum, Palin would be the perfect speaker. Former Chair of the P&Z. He was also Vice chair of the last P&Z until he resigned because of a conflict I believe. He was appointed after this commission kicked off the board in favor of their political appointments who obviously believed the way they do--grow up our city.
ReplyDeleteIt's nice to know that your NA takes "no official position" but you, as Chair, do. Honestly, Chip, do you think we all will fall for that one too? As laurel asked, why didn't you invite her to speak as well if you really wanted fair and balanced?
To the person who just attempted to respond to Barbara Jean's post in my defense (what are friends for anyway?):), I take thousands of photos during the year. Some turn out good, many don't. I do not use an unflattering shot of anyone unless it is the absolute last resort. I try to post the best or the most flattering whether it be a person or a sunset. Thanks for your old Indian proverb. In actuality it goes-- A smile you sent, will always return. Hope you get many smiles.
ReplyDeleteChip if you wanted to present information about the Charter amendment to your neighborhood why didn't you ask the committee who wrote the amendment to speak?
ReplyDeleteAnd Frank's problem with it seemed to be that it didn't cover the whole city.
In giving this presentation Frank says he represents the owners of the Gulfstream who also wanted to build a 65' adjacent hotel from Lake to 1st Ave S.
ReplyDeleteHow does this make him unbiased?
To anonymous above: The South Palm Park NA Board discussed this and voted that they wanted someone knowledgeable about this issue but was not part of the Yes or No camps. That would include the committee that wrote the Charter amendment.
ReplyDeleteWe have neighbors that are on both sides of the issue and several that wanted more information.
Frank Palen was brought up early and our first choice because he was the author of our city's Historic Preservation Ordinance.
I personally had never formally met Mr. Palen before calling him to ask him to give a presentation. Neither I, or our Board members knew if he favored the referendum or not.
We specifically did NOT want a debate and spectacle with signs and tee shirts and we all are very pleased at the turn out and questions posed.
I hope Bryant Park's meeting with William Waters on the 18th is equally as informative.
Chip Guthrie
I agree that the presenter should be knowledgeable but when asked about the 35' VS 45' part of the amendment Frank admitted he knew nothing and actually had no idea where the area was located, referring to the city hall location.
ReplyDeleteHis only concern seemed to the ability to build a 65' building adjacent to the Gulfstream from Lake to 1st Ave S.
Sounds like you weren't there. Mr. Palen brought handouts with a map he outlined where 35' and 45' would be. The handouts brought by Mr. Palen are published on other blogs and facebook.
ReplyDeleteBeing able to build 65' right next to a 100' tall building seems to be in character with that neighborhood.
That would be my concern too.
Jumping right in--just because there is a 100 foot building there now does NOT mean we have to continue to build them.
ReplyDeleteAnd that IS the worry and that IS why there is a referendum. If you can build 100 feet in a certain area, down the road 100 feet buildings WILL be built--guaranteed.
Gotta admit when you are right, you are right. Gulfstream Hotel in 1925, next thing you know, 50 years later, Lake Worth Towers. When will this insanity end?
ReplyDeleteSince we passed the referendum allowing 100 foot buildings West of Dixie, exactly.......... wait for it............ drum roll.................that's right ....... ZERO have been proposed. That was 20 years ago.....
We are in imminent danger here folks.
Golly gee, someone more sarcastic than I. Because it hasn't happened yet, does NOT mean that it won't. Do you think that tall buildings in other cities just appeared over night? Poof, the magic dragon and a tall building appears? It is what their laws allow. When times are right, any developer can take advantage of our heights--and they will. If we want to keep our downtown a low-rise city, the Charter needs to reflect that desire.
ReplyDeleteI stand corrected, PCNA changed their by-laws. Board member IDEA, Board Vote (no membership vote), and no notification that I know of besides filing required papers. I stumbled upon it.
ReplyDeleteBy-Laws are a groups mission statement, not to be changed in private, at least notify the people who pay $ for membership, or hey, put the change in the newsletter, no?
This was said above:
"We specifically did NOT want a debate and spectacle..."
Really?
Even Hilary Clinton said we have every right to debate or disagree w/any administration (or NA)!
That plus free speech and you just shot the 1st amendment
'out the window'?!?
Who made you ('you' meaning anyone who thinks this way) the decider of how the conversation will go and what kind of T-Shirts we can wear when we have it?
I have to say, not wanting to hear from ALL sides, thus controlling the conversation (Free Speech) is a bit mind numbing for me coming from really nice people...especially someone who taught me -
the Constitution Lady about
"UN_A_Lien_Able" Rights
FYI:
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law ...
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, ... or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
"If you can build 100 feet in a certain area, down the road 100 feet buildings WILL be built--guaranteed."
ReplyDeleteCapitalized "WILL" in your comment above with emphasis on "guaranteed" implies the inevitability.
Your very next comment states: "Because it hasn't happened yet, does NOT mean that it won't." There is no inevitability there.
Comments like those are why concerned citizens out there want answers to their questions about what they are voting for or against.
With that much interest out there why isn't the Respectful PAC putting on informational meetings for those who haven't made up their minds?
I hear Mango Groves and Poinciana are also trying to schedule a meeting to inform their residents too. Are they being "too political"?
Looks like a replay of Hometown Democracy going down in flames.
Informed voters will make the right choice for Lake Worth.
When it fails, just like Amendment 4, you will call us all stupid again and blame it on all the developer money when it is jobs and sustainability that we want, not keeping us poor and stagnant.
hahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! What a lot of drivel anony at 10:10
ReplyDeleteTo Suzanne: I really believe in the US Constitution.
ReplyDeleteAs it trickles down to representative democracy at the city or even a Neighborhood Association level, the same exact rules can't apply for reasons of practicality. But we do follow the same frame work.
We, the elected board of the association, voted at a regular board meeting, which is also open to the membership, to give a presentation to our members about an important issue that can affect the city we all live in.
We then went about discussing the type of presentation and who best to give this presentation with unbiased facts being the most important aspect of the presentation.
As president, I was authorized to contact up to three people to give this presentation. If the first choice was not able or willing, I was to move to the next. Frank Palen was voted on as the first choice.
We announced it as a presentation, not a forum or debate. We announced who was the speaker, his qualifications and why he was chosen. The thought was that if the facts were presented about what was entailed in the referendum, people could make their own decision. Everyone was free to ask questions or challenge any fact. And there were quite a few questions afterward.
It was extremely well attended and questioning was only cut short by time and Frank agreed to stay and answer any further questions. Free speech was never denied or even discouraged. So the 1st Amendment is still intact.
I would love to see a debate on this issue. The board of South Palm Park NA didn't want that. So who's to say how a Neighborhood Association presents an issue to their membership? I guess that would be the board.
Should you contact Bryant Park NA and force them to have a debate or forum instead of the presentation they have scheduled with William Waters?
Anyone could wear any kind of shirt and would not have been denied admittance. I chose a palm tree print Hawaiian shirt I purchased on the Saturday Sidewalk Sale Downtown the previous Saturday. You could've come dressed as the Constitution Lady. Wish you were there. I think you would have asked some good questions.
Hope to see you at Bryant Park's meeting next Monday.
Chip Guthrie